110 LSA: The 110 LSA shows up mechanically advantageous in mechanical aspects like higher RPM, lower engine knock, moderate cylinder pressure, improved idle vacuum, and higher piston-to-valve clearance. GRIND #: CRB3 3194 /3196 HR111. Lobe separation angles, he continues, are influenced by the camshaft grind. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding. 110 LSA: Oppositely, the cylinder pressure is comparatively lower at 110 LSA than at 106 LSA. A cam's lobe separation determines where and for how long peak torque occurs in an engine's rpm range. or just enough to keep the neighbors pissed? Torsion Beam Vs Multi Link: Who Wins the Battle? Although both wide (112-116) and narrow (102-110) lobe separation angles do have an effect on overlap, it's still possible to get a lot of overlap with very wide lobe separation angle cams. These issues can often be worked through by an advanced tuner, but always present a challenge and compromise in tuning strategy. Part Number: HRS-CL120325-08. For your convenience, I am providing a comparison table to give you an overall idea about the comparison. This wave tuning is what helps performance engines achieve volumetric efficiencies of more than 100 percent. Check out the Comp Cams catalog, even the biggest hydraulic rollers use 110. For large port heads like the CNC 044's which can use the extra lift 1.4's make a noticable difference. Simply put, both 106 and 110 lobe separation angles have many advantages and disadvantages. 106 LSA: As you know, the intake and exhaust lobes centerline distance is known as lobe separation angle. It's wet flow tested at 690cfm. by flat4racer17 Mon May 12, 2003 1:40 pm, Post Either learn to fix it, or learn to write checks. i've heard of this being done something about the massive amounts of duration allowes gasses to disipate? 1966 Toyota Landcruiserunder construction. I know a little about cams. As lobe seperation spreads does the powerband. somthing to that aspect. Most street cams are ground 4 degrees advanced which boosts bottom end, throttle response, vacume, mpg driveability etc. by ANT Thu May 15, 2003 6:44 pm, Copyright 2022, S&S Motorsports LLC, All Rights Reserved - Powered by phpBB Forum Software phpBB Limited. 09 All testing was run through a set of 1 3/4-inch long-tube headers and 3-inch exhaust. The 114o lobe will add a lot more vacuum at idle. A 112-114 degree lobe center will have a better idle and produce more vacuum with less overlap. These numbers can vary a few inches one way or the other, depending on several other aftermarket factors and your individual engine specifications, so you may want to check your vacuum once the cam is installed. . Powerband serves a massive contribution to the acceleration car. When you don't have any overlap, you can't have any wave tuning. = Moderately Tight 106-104 Deg. And better gas mileage. With the first cam loaded in the engine (the 101 LSA) Westech's Steve Brul made three dyno pulls, the average of which was saved to compare to the next cam. It will also give you a smoother idle and probably even better gas mileage. The final, 108-degree cam stepped power up even further, with peaks of 572 hp at 6,300 rpm and 544 lb-ft at 5,200 rpm. The engine would idle a lot rougher and generate worse exhaust emissions largely because of unburned fuel.. The standard bore block was then stuffed with a 4340 forged steel 4.0-inch crank and 6.125-inch rods, along with a set of flat-top, forged JE pistons. And better gas mileage. A cam 112LSA with 4 degrees advance puts the intake centerline at 108 degrees. by Hoxviii Mon May 12, 2003 7:50 pm, Post 07 Though the CNC-ported heads offered plenty of flow, it was necessary to upgrade the supplied valvesprings. Tests 2 and 3 meant dissecting the motor on the dyno to get the old cam out. 1-4 It is one of the most common neurological disorders worldwide, 1-5 is among the most common . The 30-30 Duntov is on the high end of the duration recommendation. Ultimately, it comes down to how you want the engine to run, the car's intended purpose, and what you are willing to tolerate. JavaScript is disabled. Selecting a camshaft for a given engines purpose usually involves a compromise between low- or high-end power options, and the lobe separation angle (LSA) is one of those factors where engine builders have to make a choice between those priorities. I am pretty sure, right now, you find yourself in the middle of the rising debate of 106 vs 110 lobe separation angle. Armed with more information on camshaft theory, what will you build? kinda off topic.. but while we're on the topic of cams, duration,lift,ect has anybody heard of using high compreshion (13:1) on pump gas, by useing alot of duration? The 114 cam will give more low end torque, good midrange, less power up high. To establish the position of each lobe, the traditional reference point is where the lobes reach max lift. Here are the basics: higher lift values open the valves to increase airflow and longer duration keeps the valves open longer. 110 LSA: You will find the complete opposite scenario here. Mechanical aspects like maximum torque, narrower powerband, higher cranking compression rate, efficient compression rate, effective EGR effect, and lower oil consumption rate increase the car engines efficiency and make it energy efficient. It provides a spark plug with the high voltage needed for combustion. Lower cylinder pressure is advantageous for your engine. So, choose the perfect lobe separation angle for your engine, complying with the requirements of your needs. But you always have a cam card with the engine. = Moderately Wide 110-108 Deg. Ed JTO learn to park Joined May 31, 2009 180 Posts How To Properly Replace Ignition CoilsContinue. It should still make close to 600hp and 600tq in my 512" stealth headed big block. by xstfudonniex Fri Dec 12, 2008 5:24 pm, Post Hopefully It will do fine in my 2276 mostly drag bug. It may not display this or other websites correctly. The 108 LSA offered the lowest idle vacuum of the three (down 4 inches). 13 The three power curves indicate that the wide (120-degree) LSA (green lines) lost considerable torque to the other two cams. No, it is not even close to the ultimate performance grind most would have picked. But there is a drawback of higher cylinder pressure: higher cylinder pressure may sometimes lead to piston or piston ring problems. not exactly true, Ive seen custom grinds that are on 108 lca, smooth idle, high vacuum an even able to run efi, usually on an off the shelf cam it is true. Again, these are general bits of conventional wisdom. On the surface, the camshaft's job is simpleopen and close the valvesbut beyond that topical description, it's one of the most mysterious and misunderstood engine components. A narrow, more specific power band is also a product of a narrow LSA, as is a lumpy idle qualityoften referred to as the 106 sound. As usual, Marc (aka Master) is correct. Turbochargers are not as simple as they may sound; you may think of them only as power-boosting components. VerticalScope Inc., 111 Peter Street, Suite 600, Toronto, Ontario, M5V 2H1, Canada. The graph above compares intake valve closing points of the three cams used in the test. On a torque graph it tends to resemble a triangular shape.. The second cam would have a rougher idle, produce more torque and would rev quicker. Now that we have a basic understanding of lobe separation angle, we can put together a test to illustrate just what happens when you make changes to it. 106 LSA: 106LSA results in a decrease in piston-to-valve clearance. Getting back to the sound of an engine, its no secret that a raucous, lumpy idle is often preferred by street cruisers, regardless of the ill manners and inefficiency of such an engine setup. This is ground into the cam and can't be changed without changing cams. http://www.mustangworks.com/cgi-bin/moi-display.cgi?220, http://www.popularhotrodding.com/en6em_camshaft_specs/lobe_seperation_angle.html. General topics - 76 LA built, CA car with m20. I've seen a few comments in threads on here that have said things like "going to the 112LC from the 108LC gives 4lbft more torque at the bottom and 2bhp more at the top" yet this would seem to go against what webcam say on. If you're an OEM automaker looking for a steady idle, good fuel economy, and passing tailpipe emissions, this is the cam of choice. I probably would have gone with 3.55 gears had I knows better.. i think a little more torque will be good for my car.With the XE274 it was a little slugish until around 3000 rpms. A cams Lobe center angle equals intake centerline plus exhaust . The first cam featured a wide 120-degree LSA, while cam number two narrowed the angle to 112 degrees. So the wider LSA introduces a broader and therefore longer torque band.. According to the Motortrend, LSA (Lobe Separation Angle) is a wonderful approximation of the operation of the engine because it takes into account the relative time of the intake-valve events (intake opening, intake closing) and the exhaust-valve events (exhaust opening, exhaust closing) concerning each other.Above mentioned sequential activities allow LSA to be an accurate representation of the operation of the engine. The power and torque curve lay directly in between the last two cams, as did the peak horsepower and torque, 488.7 at 6,200 rpm and 487.1 at 4,600 rpm, respectively. - Sheryl Crow. A wide LSA reduces valve overlap, softens the idle and improves overall drivabilityespecially on the street where performance engines benefit from 112 to 114 LSA. A forum community dedicated to vintage Ford Mustang owners and enthusiasts. Before getting to the cam profiles, we had to make sure we had a reasonable test engine. Lobe Separation Angle "LSA "Jump to Latest Follow 1 - 17 of 17 Posts . If you look at the cam card, you will find a maximum lift column on the card.Now, all you have to do is, add up the two mentioned maximum angles and divide the summation by 2. It affects the amount of valve overlap; that is the brief period of time when both the intake and exhaust valves are open.. I have 108 for LSA and my headlights take awhile to go up when the car is idling. But nothing comes without a cost, and idle vacuum suffers as LSA shrinks. Simply put, the lobe separation angle (LSA) is a measurement of how the intake and exhaust lobes are phased with each other. It depends on the combination of engine size, head flow and head flow balance, as well as a big one, exhaust flow capabilities. However, the plentiful exhaust overlap (31 degrees) meant there was lots of exhaust dilution at low engine speed and high vacuum. A 232 deg duration cam with a 108 deg LCA will have the same valve overlap as a 236 deg cam with a 110 deg LCA and idle will probably be very similar. Lobe separation angle does. I just bought a 86b Webcam and Im using 1.5's. Cam swaps are all the rage and for good reason. Enter lobe separation angle. Every spec is a road map to what the valves are doing, the most common of which are lift, duration, and lobe-separation angle (LSA)the latter needing the most explanation. Walter Noah is a process engineer who has a knack for resolving even the toughest technical issue. i have a 4 bolt 351C, stock bore, 10.5 cr with 351C Boss heads ,boss crank and rods. Ultimately, it makes the 110 LSA an oil-consuming LSA. Frontal lobe epilepsy (FLE), the second most common focal epilepsy syndrome after temporal lobe epilepsy (TLE), is frequently drug-resistant and MRI-negative. If two cams are identical with the exception of lobe separation angle (we'll say 108 and 114) the cam with 114LSA will make more low end power than the 108LSA cam? We borrowed Westech Performance's shop mule, a 370ci small-block Chevy and its SuperFlow 902 engine dyno and spent a day running each cam back-to-back to gauge its effect on peak horsepower, peak torque, cranking compression, idle vacuum, and the powerband as a wholeall the variables that define an engine's character on the street and track. thanks. But this is not the only reason. . Increasing the EGR effect has a good side in that it reduces the amount of oxygen in the combustion chamber. Comparison Table Between 106 Vs 110 Lobe Separation Angle. A wider lobe separation angle can often provide more power, but it can also lead to more wear on the engine. That notion is completely false. So, which is better? The same is true for intake valve closing. dur. A cam card with its myriad numbers, acronyms, and abbreviations is one red-pen stroke away from a failed math test. Engine knocking generally occurs when the burning of the fuel by the engine is uneven. by jim martin Mon May 12, 2003 7:10 pm, Post Equipped with the 120-degree (LSA) cam, the hybrid stroker produced 570 hp at 6,200 rpm and 535 lb-ft of torque at 5,200 rpm. . We even treated them to some chamber work before installation. Whatever you do, stay under 270 advertised duration and shoot for a 110 lobe separation. hydraboost is the same as a vacuum brakebooster, only the booster is replaced by a unit that does the same but under hydraulic pressure. 110 for sure. 10 Tuning the timing curve and fuel from the 42-lb/hr FAST injectors was handled by this Holley HP management system. The piston and cylinder damage possibility is pretty low at 110 LSA. by Kdub Sat Dec 06, 2008 11:05 pm, Post A cam with a 112 lobe center will idle smoother than a cam with a 110 lobe center. 106 LSA: At 106 LSA, the cylinder pressure is a bit higher. Let's just talk lobe sep angle. You get a better idle, vacuum, and response from a 112o-114o lobe. Yeah but do the experiment on the dyno and tell me your intuition is correct. AquaTraction Vs SeaDek: Which One Is Better For you? Elle concerne 264 taxons des degrs divers. I think the compression ratio has something to do with LSA too. But, the narrow or broad powerband choice varies from person to person. Is There a Sequence? But it also has a lot of lobe separation. According to the Comp Cams catalog, "The lobe separation angle (LSA) is equal to 1/2 the angle in crankshaft degrees of rotation between the maximum exhaust valve lift and maximum intake lift.". This causes the engine's street manners and tuning to become fickle. Howards Cams Retro-Fit Hydraulic Roller Camshaft and Lifter Kits CL120325-08. by bug1914 Tue May 13, 2003 2:56 am, Post = Moderate 108-106 Deg. As the RPM's go up this is not as critical as the higher velocity of the air/fuel moving thru keeps it from getting contaminated. Typically, narrower lobe separation develops peak torque at lower rpm and widening the separation tends to build peak torque higher in the rpm range. Anybody here run a 108 LSA? 110 LSA: On the other hand, 110 LSA is comparatively a wider LSA; it can generate a massive amount of RPM for the engine. So, without wasting any moment, lets find out the answer. 112 vs 114 lobe centers You cannot tell the differance in the two . With a 108 degree lobe center, a cam will have a rougher idle and produce less vacuum due to more overlap. 110 LSA: But here, quite surprisingly, you have to face the reduction of the EGR effect due to the 110 LSA. But, after comparing these two LSA based on a few mechanical aspects, such as maximum Torque, RPM, powerband, oil consumption, and many more, you will find the 106 LSA with better performance output. To illustrate the differences offered by changes in the LSA, we had Crane cams grind us three cam profiles that shared the same lift and duration figures, but differed only in the LSA. A few other major and, Read More Heres What Causes Your Car to Bog Down When AcceleratingContinue, Your email address will not be published. As a result of this fall, the idle of the engine has to face suffering quite often. indeed, expect low vacuum with anything lower than 110-ish. Frankly cams with a 108-114 lca unless in the perfect combo you won't usually see more than 15hp and you won't really feel the difference except for either a peaky or broad power band. The 402 was run with a FAST LSXR LS3 intake and matching 102mm throttle body along with stock LS3 rockers, a Holley HP management system and 7.4-inch hardened pushrods (from Comp Cams). If that accessory still does not assist the cam in producing enough vacuum, then as a last resort you can use a vacuum pump. Usually, an old gas tank is responsible for a vehicle bogging down during acceleration. by randy331 Sat Dec 06, 2008 10:00 pm, Post The lobe separation angle is the angle in camshaft degrees between the maximum lift points, or centerlines, of the intake and exhaust lobes. If you take any of the . Call for details with your specific combination. We will safeguard your e-mail and only send content you request. " - Voltaire. Pretty much standard for an RV type cam. Like one cam is 112 degree and the next is 108 the 108 cam will allow less "leakage"? LSA helps determine the cam's behavior; you can take a given set of lift and duration figures, change the LSA, and get cams with vastly different characteristics. from the intake to the exhaust and vise-versa.Thats why a performance cam will usually have a rougher idle than a stock one. A lower efficient compression rate leads to a higher fuel consumption rate by your engine to produce higher power. The Fora platform includes forum software by XenForo. This process slows down the reaction rates of the air-fuel mixture, causing temperatures to drop and preventing the engine from overheating. Seeking 1/2" ID x 5/8" OD Black Exit Tubing for Radiator Overflow Reservoir. you cannot just take a random change in a lobe separation angle and say 1 is better than the other. camshaft is a Cranecams F238. such as 290 @.050? Engine builders Chuck Lawrence, left, and Doug Patton. lobe centers and lobe separation are 2 different things . On the cranking compression test, Brul recorded 175 psi, a 10-psi drop from the outgoing 101 cam. Good cam for a lower rpm street engine. Come join the discussion about restoration, builds, performance, modifications, classifieds, troubleshooting, maintenance, and more! so it is a solid flat tappet, torker intake, 1" 4-hole tapered spacer and 750 carb (QFT) transmission is a wide ratio toploader, rear is a 9" 3.89 geared 26"rear tires. It produces peak torque earliercoming on quicker and strongerbut also it falls off quicker too. Typically, narrower lobe separation develops peak torque at lower rpm and widening the separation tends to build peak torque higher in the rpm range. Changing the lobe separation angle changes the amount of overlap that exists during the time the intake and exhaust valves are both open, echoes Doug Patton of Pro Line Race Engines. I just bought a 86b Webcam with 112 lobe centers for my 2276. But, after comparing these two LSA based on a few mechanical aspects, such as maximum Torque, RPM, powerband, oil consumption, and many more, you will find the 106 LSA with better performance output. In my opinion, the rougher the idle the better! I normally run a 106 to a 108 because I like the "hit" a tighter LC cam has when it come up on the came. Hopefully it turns out great. It will have slightly higher vacuum at idle, feel smoother through the power curve but have a bit less midrange. There are General guidelines about the effects of LSA but it should not be the deciding factor in choosing a cam. True enough, the tight LSA improved power through the entire rev range, from 3,600 to 6,500 rpm, but the extra power came with a penalty in idle quality. Cam timing plays an important role not only in the power generated but also the overall character of the powerplant. Test 1 was easy. This recommendation is only if you shift at no more than 7000. The 112-degree cam produced peak numbers of 567 hp at 6,200 rpm and 540 lb-ft of torque while pumping out 511 lb-ft of torque at 4,000 rpm. Howards Cam Vs Comp Cam: Which Is The Best Option For You? However it is at the expense of a small amount of bottom end power and idle quality, due to the increased overlap. The tightest LSA (101) was worth 21.5 lb-ft of torque and a much broader powerbandat the cost of much lower idle vacuum, which would make it more temperamental in a street car. The engine will have weak performance in the low-end range.A low vacuum can also cause the brake pedal to be quite difficult to press. As you can see in the graph, the 101 LSA cam actually had the highest cranking compression of the batch: 185 psi. Around 70 percent of muscle-car performance cams fall into this range. Is it a hydraulic roller as well? Exhaust reversion is another undesirable side effect that can be caused by overlap. A wider lobe center will give you more overall torque (comes in earlier and stays later). How do the lobe separations change when you factor in turbocharging? The intake lobe centerline is measured in crankshaft degrees. 114LSA +4 puts the intake centerline at 110 degrees before top dead center. What brand and what are the specs on your cam, 4-linked72? VerticalScope Inc., 111 Peter Street, Suite 600, Toronto, Ontario, M5V 2H1, Canada. My duration will be about 230 degrees. It also depends on displacement, some guys will run a bigger cam and widen the LCA to give a better idle but in my opinion it kills power. Defining Lobe Center and It's Importance to Engine Performance: A Blog. 1-3 Cognitive impairment is common in both FLE and TLE and adversely impacts quality of life and psychosocial functioning. What happens when you change ONLY. Come join the discussion about popular models such as the Mustang, Galaxie, Falcon, Fairlane, Torino, Shelby and many more! As a result, a wider valve opening system with no overlapping allows more oil to fall through the oil inlet. I think that cam had 110 lobe sep. Im loking at a summit cam with close to the same lift and duration #s but 114 lobe sep. If you shift at 7500-7800 add 4-6 degrees to both intake and exhaust and spread the lobe separation to 108-110. 3.75" stroke= 108 LSA 4.00" stroke= 110 LSA 4.25" stroke= 112 LSA 4.50" stroke= 114 LSA I can see exactly where his theory is coming from. The 108-degree cam offered both the most power and torque, but idle quality suffered compared to the wider LSAs. The balance of midrange torque and top-end horsepower lends this LSA range to the majority of street/strip engines. 110 will be a bit punchier in the midrange and probalby make a little more peak horsepower as long as a good exhaust is used. I personally prefer to sacrifice the small amount more power for better idle quality. Lobe Separation or Lobe Centers is another way of expressing the Valve Overlap, which was the term formerly used by cam manufacturers before industry standard verbiage changed. Tight lobe separations, such as 108 or shorter, will cause the peak torque to build earlier in the RPM range and peak-out in a short amount of . 15,215. ohio. Save my name, email, and website in this browser for the next time I comment. On a naturally aspirated engine, the lobe separation angle has an effect on whether the engine reaches peak torque a little earlier or later in the rpm range. JavaScript is disabled. Generally, naturally aspirated engines run narrower lobe separation angles of around 106 to 108 whereas supercharged, turbo or nitrous engines operate with 112 to 114 and higher. If the overlap phase occurs too early, it will create an overly rich condition in the exhaust port, severely decreasing the gas mileage. I will be running an Edelbrock Performer RPM, with a Quick Fuel 750cfm with a screw adjustable vacuum secondary; it's called the Pro-vac. also,, wider will produce a wider and more flat torque curve that doesn't fall off as abruptly up top rpms. Its the shifting problem again with your Chevy! Anybody do any real testing on LSA in a 3.75 stroke small block chevy?I have always used 104-106 and was thinking about trying a 108 or 110 design.I know there is a lot of variables but just a general opinion from any experts.This is for motor only no nitrous.600-640 HP engine combos.Much appreciated! It is an important note you must keep; due to the lobe separation angle, there creates an overlapping of intake valve opening time and exhaust valve closing time and vice versa. We'll send you raw engine tech articles, news, features, and videos every week from EngineLabs. But that doesnt mean high-strung racing engines cant see gains, as well. It creates an unsteady manifold vacuum condition that, on a fuel-injected engine, confuses manifold air pressure (MAP) sensors, making it hard for them to regulate fueling. Engine builders Chuck Lawrence, left, and Doug Patton. 08 Additional components used to build the stroker included a set of Comp hydraulic roller lifters, ARP head studs, and a new oil pump. I had a 110 cam in my beetle and I didn't like it-the bottom end was doggy. Next up was the 112-degree cam, which actually lost out in peak power slightly to the 120-degree cam, but offered considerably more torque. 106 LSA: The scale of efficient compression rises at 106 LSA. I am trying to pick out a hydraulic roller cam for my 351W with AFR 185s. The tighter the lobe center, the lower the RPM range; the wider the lobe center, the higher the RPM range. NOTE: Classic Inlines stocks the above profiles in 108, 110, and 112 lobe centers. While a cam with a 108 lobe center will idle rougher. But an interestingly shocking fact is that this event escalates the air-fuel mixtures reaction rates, causing temperatures to rise and causing the problem of overheating the engine. If a street car has smaller lift and duration numbers, they might run 112 or 114.